Preview Mode Links will not work in preview mode

Azure DevOps Podcast

Message from Jeffrey Palermo: Howdy.  Welcome to my podcast.  I hope it helps you ship software more quickly and more reliably. Through the topics and guests, I hope your life is made easier. Let me know what topics would be helpful for you.

Podcast sponsor: Clear Measure We are a software architecture company that empowers our client's development teams to be self-sufficient: moving fast, delivering quality, and running their systems with confidence.

Dec 7, 2020

In this episode, Michael A. Hawker, AKA ‘XAML Llama,’ joins the podcast to discuss the Windows Community Toolkit and more.


Michael is a Senior Software Engineer for the Partner, Analytics, and essential eXperiences (PAX) team at Microsoft. PAX focuses on driving the ISV ecosystem through technical engagement with partners and industry as well as providing essential first-party experiences. Michael is also the maintainer of the Windows Community Toolkit and prior to that, “App Ninja.” Previously, he’s worked on Windows Protocols, Message Analyzer, and Network Monitor. Additionally, he is also the creator of XAML Studio, a Microsoft Garage project.


Jeffrey and Michael discuss Michael’s role as a Windows Community Toolkit Maintainer, the ins and outs of the Windows Community Toolkit, its .NET Standard libraries, the state of full application testing, and key learning moments that he and his teams have gone through. Michael also provides advice, recommendations, and resources regarding .NET and application development; .NET Standard libraries; Project Reunion; what is currently state-of-the-art when it comes to UI layout; and, of course, the Windows Community Toolkit!


Topics of Discussion:

[:38] Be sure to visit AzureDevOps.Show for past episodes and show notes.

[1:02] About The Azure DevOps Podcast and Jeffrey’s offer to speak at virtual user groups.

[1:16] Clear Measure is hiring! Be sure to check out the link in the show notes.

[1:42] About today’s guest, Michael Hawker!

[2:20] Jeffrey welcomes Michael to the podcast.

[2:40] Michael shares about his background and how he ended up in his current role as a Senior Software Engineer and Windows Community Toolkit Maintainer.

[5:00] Jeffrey and Michael talk about the strategy and vision for .NET 5.

[7:11] Michael elaborates on what Project Reunion is.

[10:10] What is the Windows Community Toolkit?

[11:32] Michael shares about Windows Community Toolkit’s reach and where it works, and its .NET Standard libraries.

[13:50] Is Michael seeing a lot of developers adopting their .NET Standard libraries on non-Windows applications?

[16:01] What is the current modern installer or deployment package format?

[19:16] A word from Azure DevOps Podcast’s sponsor: Clear Measure.

[19:46] The state of full application testing and the libraries that the Windows Community Toolkit is currently using.

[26:29] Michael highlights some of the learning moments that he and his teams have gone through with having a high-productive DevOps environment and working on a Windows Application.

[32:04] As more and more people come back to Windows development and natively installed applications in general, what is the state-of-the-art when it comes to UI layout?

[34:15] Michael shares his recommendations and resources for .NET and application development.

[37:00] Jeffrey thanks Michael for joining the podcast!


Mentioned in this Episode:

Azure DevOps

Clear Measure (Sponsor)

.NET DevOps for Azure: A Developer's Guide to DevOps Architecture the Right Way, by Jeffrey Palermo — Available on Amazon! — Click here to download the .NET DevOps for Azure ebook!

Jeffrey Palermo’s Youtube

Jeffrey Palermo’s Twitter Follow to stay informed about future events!

The Azure DevOps Podcast’s Twitter: @AzureDevOpsShow

.NET Conf 2020

Windows Community Toolkit

XAML Studio

Michael Hawker’s LinkedIn

Michael Hawker’s Twitter @XAMLLlama

Michael Hawker’s Twitch @XAMLLlama

WinUI 3

Project Reunion

WinUI Community Call (Oct. 21st, 2020)




Azure Artifacts

Azure DevOps Podcast Ep. 80: “Ryan Demopoulos on WinUI”


Want to Learn More?

Visit AzureDevOps.Show for show notes and additional episodes.